Comments on abufares said...the world according to a tartoussi: Secular Shivers and Religious Fever

@اسفرجل My pleasure, especially that your blog is...

2009-05-11T00:02:00.000+03:00

@اسفرجل

My pleasure, especially that your blog is back to life.
Please keep a great thing going. The Syrian Blogsphere needs you.

Thank you Abu Fares for mentioning humble Esfarjel...

2009-05-10T20:52:00.000+03:00

Thank you Abu Fares for mentioning humble Esfarjel in your great blog. Just wanted to announce that Esfarjel is back to life.

Thanks Abufares. I promise this will not be my las...

2008-11-28T21:00:00.000+02:00

Thanks Abufares. I promise this will not be my last visit.

صباح الخير أبو فارسI'm certain the link below will...

2008-11-28T12:29:00.000+02:00

صباح الخير أبو فارس
I'm certain the link below will be of great value to many.
http://www.yamli.com/editor/

@AymanThank you for commenting here and for taking...

2008-11-28T11:06:00.000+02:00

@Ayman
Thank you for commenting here and for taking the time to write about this matter in Arabic. It is my personal opinion that there is a divide between English and Arabic Syrian blogging. I think your article actually contributed in bridging this divide in a very efficient manner.
My earlier observation that there are very few bloggers/readers who comment on both sides went mostly unnoticed but I think the evidence support this hypothesis. I, for one, read most of your posts, if not all. Yet I don't comment as much as I do on English blogs. The deficiency is within us (in this case within me). Of course the language barrier is the primary cause behind this observation. It might hold true in assuming that perhaps a good percentage of Syrian Arabic bloggers/readers do not use English but the opposite is not that probable. Most of Syrian English bloggers/readers have no problem with Arabic yet their visits (as partially evidenced by their comments) are not that common. Could it be that they don't have Arabic keyboards?
Again, thank you for your visit.

"It would have been of tremendous value for my blo...

2008-11-28T04:18:00.000+02:00

"It would have been of tremendous value for my blog and an honor for me if Ayman left his very valid questions about my generalization and simplification of the subject matter here."

Wallah the honor is mine ya Abu Fares! You are right, I should have commented here. But I also wanted to comment on what other fellow bloggers wrote and to start a debate in Arabic, which you thankfully enriched.

Enough was said about this topic, I guess. I would only add that the three female bloggers you mentioned are truly outstanding!

Salaams.

@GottfriedStutzThank you for you first visit and c...

2008-11-27T18:22:00.000+02:00

@GottfriedStutz
Thank you for you first visit and comment. I hope they won't be your last.
Don't expect me to maintain this contentious intensity though. It usually is much quieter than this.

Hi Abufares,Why haven't I visited your blog before...

2008-11-27T14:40:00.000+02:00

Hi Abufares,

Why haven't I visited your blog before? It is a gold mine of interesting opinions and information. Thanks for that.

I, too, miss Esfarjel. If anyone knows her/his identity, may be we could encourage her/him to pick up that keyboard again.

This has turned into quite the discussion, rightly...

2008-11-26T03:24:00.000+02:00

This has turned into quite the discussion, rightly so. Thank you, again, for your compliments and support. As always, they are very touching and encouraging. :)

@ReadersThis subject initiated a domino effect of ...

2008-11-25T11:04:00.000+02:00

@Readers

This subject initiated a domino effect of a sort. It has been followed mostly on English written Syrian blogs. However, a parallel discussion, namely on the Damascene blog of Ayman took shape in Arabic. Some of us read both English and Arabic blogs but very few leave comments here and there.
It would have been of tremendous value for my blog and an honor for me if Ayman left his very valid questions about my generalization and simplification of the subject matter here.

http://www.damasceneblog.com/arabic

FYG, I copied my 2nd comment on his article.

العزيز أيمن
لم يكن هدفي الإرادي أو الغير إرادي ادعاء المعرفة. تابعت هذا الموضوع وما وصل إليه باستغراب ودهشة. إذ أن ردود الفعل فاقت التدوينات الأساسية جدلاً وحدة. على الجانب الإنكليزي من التدوين السوري وبشكل عام (لم أجد حتى الآن ما يعيب التعميم عدا كون بعض المعلقين الأعزاء من حملة شهادات الدكتوراه المتخصصة جداً والذين لا يمكنهم إلا قبول النتاج الفكري لحملة جائزة نوبل في الإقتصاد) كانت ميالةً أكثر إلى اللبرالية الفكرية والعلمانية. بينما لم يكن هنالك عدد كاف من التدوينات والتعليقات على الجانب العربي لاستنباط نتائج تحمل المصداقية الاحصائية ولا نريد التعميم هنا حتماً، فالتعميم بدعة. لندع الشعبية جانباً عزيزي أيمن فأنا من الأشخاص اللذين لا يأخذون أنفسهم بمحمل الجد لأنني لا أملك متسعاً من الوقت لذلك ولعل هذه الميزة بالذات ساهمت بالشعبية التي تتكلم عنها والتي إن كانت صحيحة ومستحقة تعود إلى القراء اللذين لآ يملكون الوقت أيضاً للأمور الجادة فهم بغالبيتهم مثلي، من حملة الثانوية العامة على الأكثر ويشاطرونني الرأي أنه (ما فيه شي مستاهل). عذراً لكن لا بد لي من أن أقتبس من زميلي أوسكار وايلد
"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow".
أعود وأكرر ما قلته على مدونتي أن هدف مقالتي تحديداً كان إلقاء الضوء على كتابات بعض المدونات (الإناث) السوريات الجديدات والتي أقل ما يقال فيها أنها رائعة واعتبارها متناقضةً اسلوباً ومضموناً مع عدد لا يستهان به من المدونات السورية (العربية) الجديدة والتي تتسم وبشكل عام (أستغفر الله) بميولها الدينية. أيمن... ما أقترحه هو أن تطالع المدونات الجديدة بالعربية وخاصةً تلك المعلنة على موقع المدون لتصل إلى الرأي الذي تراه مناسباً. إن ردي هذا ليس موجهاً لك أنت تحديداً وانما رد (عام). عذراً على الإطالة أو إن كنت تجاوزت حدود ضيافتك الكريمة

@AscriboThank you for taking the time to comment.I...

2008-11-25T10:53:00.000+02:00

@Ascribo
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
I really don't believe we should work on changing each other's mind but rather any attempt at understanding each other's thought should be encouraged and pursued.

@Syrian BritFirst of all I'm very happy to see you...

2008-11-25T10:51:00.000+02:00

@Syrian Brit
First of all I'm very happy to see you here after such a long absence.

Voltaire no less... "If only we could learn!..."

I almost forgot how funny it could be to engage (o...

2008-11-25T08:36:00.000+02:00

I almost forgot how funny it could be to engage (or better: watch people engaging) in a religious vs. secular arguement...By the way, I thought secularism meant that one doesn't really care about religion, rather than being ultra-allergic to all things religioius.

The bottom line is, well, it's very difficult to change other's way of seeing things...Neither party is going to successfuly convert the other. Why we don't all keep our differences to ourselves and build on our common grounds? That's beyond me...

"Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, m...

2008-11-25T04:08:00.000+02:00

"Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire."

Voltaire

(I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it.)

If only we could learn!...

And yes Jabs, I was interested in your answers on ...

2008-11-24T19:51:00.000+02:00

And yes Jabs, I was interested in your answers on those question (6 questions actually, not 4 ;) ). But they all more or less fall within the bracket of accepting others and allowing them to engage in the process even when they're diametrically opposed to what you believe in. And I must say that 4 YESs is a great score. I'd be seriously pleased if the majority of religiously-inclined people were thinking the same things…

Have a good day.

Dear Jabz, thank you for replying. I of course sup...

2008-11-24T19:41:00.000+02:00

Dear Jabz, thank you for replying.
I of course support your right to exist and live the way you desire no matter what. I was referring, as you could infer from the context, to a perceived Islamic political entity that one day might engage in a political process. Nobody said Islamic precepts were backward or anything, Islam is a great religion and it doesn't need me or you to illustrate a point. It doesn't even require compulsion or regulating of dress code and stuff. Why do you need to coerce people from the first place? Coercion is meant for unattractive things, like military service which obviously not everyone would be enthused to join for some reasons (as an example). Coercion is for your 4 years old son who doesn't want to drink milk or take his medicine. When it comes to adults and moral choices, coercion is poisonous. It has absolutely the adverse effect. It's especially repulsive when it's carried out in the name of religion. So my friend, what I am looking forward to is a dialogue where people leave their religious mission at the door and come with neutral ideas, because when you're talking about a collective decision-making process for a nation then the superiority and the omniscience of your personal faith should be put aside. You can always come up with ideas that are based on your personal belief, but you shouldn't expect everyone to accept them (especially when they intrude into their personal life and personal space) and should you wish to be more open-minded, you might entertain the idea of assessing other people's suggestions with the same level of critical thinking that you would usually use to assess a religious concept.

As for the Khilafah state…well, let's just say that it contradicts the very basic concept of rotary and pluralistic democracy…

@MariayhNow I will be accused of being grossly unj...

2008-11-24T19:31:00.000+02:00

@Mariayh
Now I will be accused of being grossly unjust in treating my guests in the comment section.

El Denniah Ma 7elweh balaki :-)

When I mentioned you as an example it was exactly because you have stirred away from politics and religion and accordingly I considered yours a secular blog. It was not my intention at all to go back in time to confront an absentee blogger for something he wrote. As a matter of fact I read what has now become a controversial post back when it was first written. I left, without leaving a comment but with the decision that I'll never waste my time again there. That was the end of the story for me.
Then I read Dania's post and felt her enthusiasm in defending her own freedom of thought and I was inspired.
So I decided to pay tribute to her and to Razan who was the reason behind Dania writing her post in the first place. And I've been following Diana's Quiver for sometime and enjoying her relatively short poignant posts. Finally, there's You. Ever since you popped your little head on the Syrian blogosphere you've certainly made it a much nicer and warmer place. You brought love and affection. You brought Romance and mystery. But most significantly you brought Style. Your delicate mastery of writing is breathtaking.
I wanted to let everyone knows about the 4 of you, although Razan Masha Allah doesn't need any promotion (Bet La7e2 3ala Balad:-)))

Then look where this post took you, me and everyone involved. In a way, it's a good thing because it opened a channel of discussion on a topic that is sensitive judging from the reactions it solicited so far.

Thank you for leaving a scent of Jasmine behind.

@JabzThe most beautiful aspect of a discussion is ...

2008-11-24T19:04:00.000+02:00

@Jabz
The most beautiful aspect of a discussion is that there are no winners or losers.
I still need to answer your new question though.

Q-is the western created democracy what suites the society in Syria?
A-Certainly not as far as I'm concerned. My personal opinion is that we need to forge our own passage to liberty from the accumulation of religions, cultures and civilizations which inhabited this great land of ours and borrow from others (WHY NOT). Islam could provide a most significant contribution but should not monopolies this duty and privilege. Do you really think that the penal code of Islam is much different from that of Hammurabi? Where do you think the "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth" principle came from?
Islam is certainly much more refined because it has the luxury of time on its side.
I see no valid reason to stop human social evolution and it's very plausible, although highly hypothetical, that some INTERNET archaeologist comes over this "discussion" a thousand years from now and laughs his ass off at the primitiveness, naivety and crudeness of our ideas (yours and mine).

Dearest, Abu Fares. First off, I'd like to thank y...

2008-11-24T18:37:00.000+02:00

Dearest, Abu Fares. First off, I'd like to thank you for your reference to my blog and your compliments. They are much appreciated. It is an honour to be mentioned in the same breath with these other fantastic bloggers. I could mention some male bloggers, along with yourself who provide wonderful blogs and information about Syria - Yazan and Abu Kareem! I enjoy all of these very much.

I have felt very badly that I haven't been able to provide a blog exclusively in Arabic. I am ashamed to say that I have not honed my writing skills in Arabic. Since much of my professional life was spent in Canada, I only used English. I am working on improving my Arabic and hope, one day, to have a mirror blog in our native language.

I have steered clear of politics and religion in my blog. I felt there were a lot of very strong blogs out there that already dealt with these topics - clearly Razan is one of those. That is not to say that I don't have an opinion. I feel that both of these topics should be discussed openly and rationally and civilly. However, unfortunately, extremism does not leave room for tolerance which makes it a very difficult force to deal with. I hope that there are enough rational people out there willing to have discussions, but we will always have to deal with fanaticism. We just cannot allow its bullying tactics and unpleasantries to soften or extinguish our voices.

Abufares,yes your right but is the western created...

2008-11-24T15:32:00.000+02:00

Abufares,
yes your right but is the western created democracy what suites the society in Syria? thats one thing. Second thing is that I feel that people who oppose having a Islamic state (one which bases its laws, regulations and anything else on islamic teachings and the teachings of the Quran)think that if we do it will end up being like the one in Saudi Arabia, or Iran even though Iran is a democracy, yet the very stringent in its laws, policing etc as we all know.
What about states such as Malaysia? that practices sharia law but no one seems to mention.

We should not think of an Islamic state as one that will take us backwards make us more ignorant and less respectful of other people, after all this is not what Islam teaches.

DJ: again same thing. you are thinking in a way as if Islam is a backwards ideology that suppresses human rights, freedom of expression etc, when obviously that is completely opposite to what it teaches. I understand that the points you have put forward might have been formed by you maybe looking at Islamic history and past actions, structures and laws of islamic states, but what was back then is not necessary what is needed or viable in todays world. I have to admit that an islamic state will probably carry with it some of the things you are worried about such as dress codes, who can run for elections (in some cases for example the Khalifa should be muslim obviously), and banning of public display of sexual orientation but other things you mentioned such as 'policing the inter-mingling between different genders' never existed and only exists today (in KSA) because of the mixing between culture and religion.

I don't know if your looking for my opinion regarding those questions or the actual islamic context of those questions. I think the Q regarding political parties would require a whole new discussion and the other 4 Q's in short would be a Yes that is in my opinion with reservation on the scientists Q's. But i think you should be more worried about those questions than the stuff you mentioned earlier.

so right now you do not support my right to exist and live in the way i desire? :)

Thanks all for the mind-opening discussion!

Thank you Abu Fares, your great post has instigate...

2008-11-24T13:40:00.000+02:00

Thank you Abu Fares, your great post has instigated a very interesting debate and you my friend are the best :)

Dear Jabz, thank you so much for your reply.You br...

2008-11-24T13:37:00.000+02:00

Dear Jabz, thank you so much for your reply.

You bring up the subject of civil laws as if I was calling for lawlessness. I certainly am not. :)

What I am totally and vehemently against is imposing religious moralities on our daily lives and making it compulsory by introducing laws that address subjects like dress code, policing the inter-mingling between genders, what should and what should not be said in public, what books should or should not be published, who’s allowed to run for elections and who’s not or sexual orientation of people.

Democracy is a package. Take it or leave it. Let’s take a look as the example that you cited which is the American elections (although I am not a huge fan of the model of American democracy). The republicans didn’t get the office this time around. They will try their luck the next term. But in the meantime, they will be given complete rights of oversight and scrutiny over everything the democrats are doing. They will hold their conferences and they will decry every screw up the democrats make along the way. So tell me: are Islamic parties (wherever they are) prepared to accept these terms when they engage in a political process? In other words; are you going to allow a communist party to hold meetings and nationally publicized press conferences where they would harshly criticize your policies?

Are you going to allow a group of atheists to form a society and conduct meetings and such activities without getting harassed?

Are you going to allow scientists to conduct their researches without imposing on them what they should or shouldn’t venture to?

Are you going to allow qualified citizens from other religions and sects to compete for high positions in academia and public service?

Are you going to concede and hand over power to a secular party if it wins the elections the next time around?

Are you prepared to serve EVERY CITIZEN equally and allow them to make use of their civil rights without discrimination upon religion?

If your answer to the above questionnaire is a yes, then we are in agreement my friend. I’d be the first one to support your right to exist and live in the way desire.

@JabzDJ should answer your comment but let me just...

2008-11-24T13:19:00.000+02:00

@Jabz
DJ should answer your comment but let me just butt in. Obama was elected for 4 years, 8 years maximum, not forever.
If an Islamic party wins the elections in a democratic system (i.e. Turkey) for a definite term then there's no problem at all. People will give this party a shot and evaluate its performance. The party might win or lose the next elections. But an Islamic State will not allow this process to continue.

@JabzApology accepted and incidence forgotten.Don'...

2008-11-24T13:03:00.000+02:00

@Jabz
Apology accepted and incidence forgotten.
Don't think that you are the only one who is seeing a new social face of Syria. We are all learning and discovering this and other dynamics whether living in Syria or abroad.
My broad generalization about polarizing blogs into secular and religious ones was not very impressive or accurate. However, I must repeat that it was a "generalization" and every social or political aspect is scaled on a "continuum" as Abu Kareem indicated on his blog. So any blog could be indeed classified on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being extreme secularism and 10 being extreme religious fanaticism). In light of this new definition, many of the new Syrian Arabic written blogs as I clearly stated in my post fall around 8 or over, from my point of view.
Why the use of these 2 words (secular and religious) stirred so many monsters under the bed only support my point. Syrian society is indeed divided along this line. We have an economic divide between the haves and the have-nots. And we have a divide between the secular and religious. Probably the word secular was misunderstood. I didn't think I should post the dictionary definition of the word but here it is to be certain that I'm not misunderstood.

of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred

Accordingly, Ayman's blog

http://www.damasceneblog.com/arabic/

is a secular blog.

The social division I'm talking about is that a large group of Syrians classify themselves as Muslims before any other characteristic. On the other hand, another large group is secular in that religion does not play a central role in their lives. Every Syrian, as a matter of fact, every human would fit somewhere on a scale of 1 to 10. The 1's and 10's are, according to me, the most dangerous.
Thank you again for an entertaining and stimulating conversation. You are always welcome on my blog.
By the way, my next article is certainly secular as I intend to post a recipe:-)

DJ,Think about it from a different perspective. Th...

2008-11-24T12:37:00.000+02:00

DJ,
Think about it from a different perspective. The American elections for example. There are people who voted for Obama and there are those that chose McCain, and those that chose Gravel and so on, now even though the majority voted for Obama there are still those that voted for those other candidates, but they won't get what they want after all it is the majority that decides who the next president is. And it should be no different when it comes to what form of government we want in Syria or any other country if the majority choose to have an Islamic state.
I don't think your comments really make sense cause your just forming your ideas in order to meet your conclusion. I ask you this question, what is the purpose of having civil laws and punishments in our society? Arn't the laws and punishments out there to make you afraid of the consequences you face for doing the wrong thing?
If I do not believe in or agree on the civil laws in Syria does that make them void? do they now not apply to me? Civil law doesn't tell you what to be, neither does Islamic law, it might give rules on what you can and can't do in public but doesn't tell you what you can do or not in your own house.

I also completely agree with Razan when she replied i think to your post DJ when she said that she doesnt believe that there is a secular or religious path and that it is all the same.