Comments on abufares said...the world according to a tartoussi: Betty and Mahmoud

@SarahThank you for dropping by.I agree with your ...

2008-09-01T11:20:00.000+03:00

@Sarah
Thank you for dropping by.
I agree with your two points almost completely.
Today I read a wonderful post by Abu Kareem about his parents experience.

http://levantdream.blogspot.com/2008/08/mixed-marriage-insiders-view.html

This has been a fascinating discussion...and I hav...

2008-08-31T23:33:00.000+03:00

This has been a fascinating discussion...and I have only two things to add.

First, how well Betty fits in with Syrian culture will probably depend to some extent on where in the U.S. she's from. I've met people from the Southern U.S. in the Middle East who seemed to have an easier time fitting in that people from the Northeast, for example.

Second, it's nice to hear about so many examples of foreign women remaining committed to the Middle Eastern men they date. I'm not against romantic flings, but the majority of flings that I've witnessed between Western women and Middle Eastern men haven't ended well; worse, they've reinforced negative stereotypes on both sides. And contrary to gendered stereotypes about men and women's ability to commit to a relationship, in these situations it usually seems to be the foreign girl who leaves the guy in the dust, much to his chagrin...so it's nice to know that these relationships sometimes result in a fruitful and rewarding commitment.

Salaam,Dear betty,you are very welcome to write to...

2008-08-25T19:13:00.000+03:00

Salaam,
Dear betty,you are very welcome to write to me.
It is hard but everyone can make it insh allah :)and in theese days whith the internet its not hard to keep in touch whith family.
I am from Sweden and have been married to an cristian Lebanese and we have 2 kids and i have lived in Lebanon to and are now married to an Palestinian since 10 years alhamdullilah and i live in an camp here in Syria since 4 years.
(cristian lebanes/palestinian muslim !!!! lots of problem...yeah belive me)and its never ends...
well...sometime i will write a book about my life ;)

Best regards from an happy europen in Syria.

I haven't been following this much, but here's a w...

2008-08-17T15:17:00.000+03:00

I haven't been following this much, but here's a website I read a while ago and I think it'll be useful:
A Foreigner in Syria
the writer is a college student from Massachusetts who visited Damascus for some time to learn arabic. He has a positive attitude and his writing is fairly accurate..I hope it'll help a bit

Abufares,ignorance is the worst of all disease, no...

2008-08-17T02:48:00.000+03:00

Abufares,ignorance is the worst of all disease, no mater what the religion is,

READ, IN THE NAME OF THY LORD WHO CREATED,

education is the key
lê

ps, just returned from fishing we hade a nice day,

@BettySo nice of you to drop by in the comment sec...

2008-08-13T12:54:00.000+03:00

@Betty
So nice of you to drop by in the comment section.
It seems that the general consensus, so far, is that we should follow our heart and that love is greater than any obstacle.
I fully agree. The least you could achieve is to give yourself the opportunity to learn about and to enhance your knowledge of the other people who share this planet with you. The best, of course, is to live happily ever after.
Either way, you should never come out a loser.

@w.b. yeatsVanity! Fools alone give themselves the...

2008-08-13T12:41:00.000+03:00

@w.b. yeats

Vanity! Fools alone give themselves the right to think on behalf of others. They believe that by avoiding a moment of truth they will successfully evade suffering.
Sitting at the table later on, counting their gains and losses, they realize the harsh truth. Pain was, all along, inevitable.

Hi Y'allI planned to remain silent and just observ...

2008-08-13T11:12:00.000+03:00

Hi Y'all

I planned to remain silent and just observe in order not to influence the exchange in any way.
I'll step in momentarily and respond to a couple of points.

@saint
You're right. Betty should make her own mind about the possible effects of Mahmoud's background and upbringing on their relationship. Even if they plan to remain in the US as I've learned later, a visit to his hometown (if things get serious enough) could be of tremendous value.

@Az3ar's fan
Homesickness is a powerful emotion. It doesn't affect all people equally. I can only talk about myself. I can't see myself staying away from Tartous for any significant length of time even on the account of my career (which it did).

@Mariyah
Your words obviously come from a deep personal experience. Betty needs to communicate with girls like you who can help her in locating some seemingly insignificant loose threads.

@KJ
Thank you for restating what I believe "was" and still "is" my greatest contribution to humanity.

@Kaya
Alas... Only if you weren't sooo married. I would've certainly made a pass at you.

@DJ
I'm all for Civil Marriage in Syria and everywhere else in the world. I don't have to embrace it myself but I fully support everybody's right to do so.

Hi ALL I am Betty!! I want to thank everyone for t...

2008-08-13T05:25:00.000+03:00

Hi ALL I am Betty!! I want to thank everyone for the wonderful advice. My relationship is new but I am trying to work through some of the toughest issues as soon as possible so I can arm myself for the future. Honestly, I don’t know what will happen in my relationship, we are both so focused on our careers and we are taking the relationship very slow, hoping to give us time to be sure about one another. I contacted abufares to seek knowledge and an understanding, and as everyone has said he was successful! The middle eastern culture is so foreign to me. Here in the US we aren’t exposed to any of the “good” aspects of it. Everything we hear is politically based or are stories of unjust things happening to women and daughters. I cant understand “him” until I see more of the story so to speak. So thank you all, I wish I could pick every one of your brains with questions, but who has time for that. I guess the main goal for me is to get past the stereotype and try to understand the conflicting issues between American and Middle Eastern culture. I am open to any more advice and am thankful for feedback thus far!

I, a Catholic raised atheist, was once in a very s...

2008-08-12T18:43:00.000+03:00

I, a Catholic raised atheist, was once in a very special relatiosnhip with a Muslim from Syria. Although we shared many views, interests, loves, friends, likes and dislikes, he felt always the need to remind me that I would not fit in back at his home town. In the end, after a year or so I broke up with him.

Maybe I should have asked him if he was also willing to fight for what we had? If he would stand by me no matter what, as I would have for him? If he could live with the good and the bad a mixed marriage could bring?

If Mahmoud is willing to make it work and share the responsability a marriage entails, I give Betty the thumbs up!

w.b. yeats

Very truly said mariyahYou speak of the difference...

2008-08-12T10:49:00.000+03:00

Very truly said mariyah
You speak of the differences of mixed marriages, you would be amazed at the huge differences that exist within the same race/religion/culture.
My husband's family is so far removed from mine that the tiniest things they say/do would freak me out.
14 years later and after much trial and tribulations, I have finally to a certain level, come to learn to overlook and ignore many things.
Just as not speaking the language has its drawbacks so does it have its plus points.
You dont understand a lot of stuff said, and its less hurtful. You are given a certain amount of leeway because YOU dont know the culture and as such can get away with quite a bit.(HEHEHHEH)
Its very good advice that I am about to disclose. The settings of the scenario in the early stages is what will last a life time.
Its been 14 years but the goof ups I made early on tide me over now. Everyone seems to have forgotten that its been 14 years, that I speak punjabi fluently, or know the ins and outs of the family.
They always say, oh she doesnt know she has come from out.
You know what I mean.
If you do not have that level of understanding with your husband- believe me, no one else can guide/support you.
Its very important esp in our culture, to follow his cue, like whom he likes, and so on forth.
Once you have built that trust, then you can start making changes slowly, in things/people that you dont like.

Thanks Abu Fares for this post.. did I tell you th...

2008-08-11T12:12:00.000+03:00

Thanks Abu Fares for this post.. did I tell you that your posts make my day and take me out of my misery?

Yes! For that you serve a great purpose in my daily life.

As for Betty, allow me to quote Abu Fares (or rather perhaps paraphrase): You'd know if he's Mr Right if you can imagine yourself sharing one toothbrush with him

Well said, Abu Fares. Your thoughts are not conten...

2008-08-11T03:27:00.000+03:00

Well said, Abu Fares. Your thoughts are not contentious...just well laid out and thoughtful.

Betty: As a product of a "mixed marriage" - my mother a Christian European and my father a Muslim Syrian - I have only a few things to add. Yes, their relationship was a product of a past generation, but after also talking to some friends who are in mixed marriages I can suggest the following:

As a wife of a Syrian be prepared to fully embrace Syria and its traditions. You will find that they will play an increasing large role in your life and the life of your future family. Family in Syria, as with many other traditional countries which Abu Fares aptly mentioned, is tighter and more influential than you may ever see in an American family.

Yes, love can overcome race and religion, but love alone cannot hold a relationship together. You have to make sure that you are willing to comprimise...perhaps more on your side and that that will not eventually create bitterness. I experienced very little to do with my mother's background until I left for Canada when I was 20, which I know bothered my mother. You may be a stronger woman, in this respect, than my mother, and Mahmoud may not be as stiff as my father, but you may still find an inequality in that element of your relationship.

Of course, its not all negative, I only wanted to outline the things that caused problems. My father was fiercely loyal to my mother and the two of them experienced a wonderful love story that lasted nearly 40 years. It appears you are cautiously entering this relationship and with your eyes open. Kudos to you. I hope it works out.

As an Arab who is married to someone from the USA ...

2008-08-10T18:54:00.000+03:00

As an Arab who is married to someone from the USA and living in the USA, I can share this: in the long run you will be missing your family and it will be difficult to connect with them on daily basis. For that alone, I want Betty to think about her future decision. I mean if you go to my blog, you will find my post of the late great poet Mahmoud Darwish longing for his mother. Ofcourse, the poem has more significane than that but you get the point.

Contentious, yes, but only for one issue, Mahmoud ...

2008-08-10T17:46:00.000+03:00

Contentious, yes, but only for one issue, Mahmoud place. You made me curious where Mahmoud place is, and it might be up to Betty to find out what values he still cherish and what he dislike from his home place. Although, it might have little effect on the Mahmoud personality and affiliation.

I was in the same shoes like you abufares, when my neighbor, a young professional single lady came to me for advise about a fellow Muslim from the middle east she is sleeping with and considering him for long term relationship. I had the chance a day before to meet him and listen to him. When she asked me, I could not hide my views about this guy who still living in his stone aged mind. I still feel proud I did the right thing and stood to humanity not nationality side of the matter.

Hi y'allI don't want to reply to each comment as u...

2008-08-10T12:34:00.000+03:00

Hi y'all
I don't want to reply to each comment as usual since this particular post is in the end about Betty & Mahmoud. I wish, however, that everyone pitches in with an opinion like all of the above have done so far.
Zena brought up a very interesting point and that is no 2 stories are ever similar.
Abu Kareem was very helpful especially since he talked about his parents' wonderful experience.
Lujayn's suggestion that Betty should visit Mahmoud's town is great advice. I might add that if and when Betty feels that her relationship should move to the next level, a visit to Syria and to Mahmoud's town would be very beneficial.
Kaya as ever hits the nail right on the head. Race, religion and nationality are not that important anymore when the fire of true love burns and illuminates the dark alleys of doubts and bigoted stagnation.
Sean, a world traveler from London, practically brought Betty's attention to the need of learning from the experiences of others.
Dubai Jazz a Syrian expat in Dubai tackled the issue from a different angle and paused a very serious and valid question. We should answer his question on whether we agree with him or not (and I will later on in this comment section.

I really believe that the story of Betty & Mahmoud is one with universal appeal and validity. There are no right or wrong answers, just honest and personal ideas to share.

Abu Fares, very well-written and balanced post, bu...

2008-08-10T11:53:00.000+03:00

Abu Fares, very well-written and balanced post, but what else is new :)

I completely agree with Mrs. Robinso… oops! I mean with Kaya; I had the chance to meet people from variety of religions and backgrounds in the past couple of years. One thing is for sure: human beings connect on levels that transcend religion and race. I have a friend who couldn’t be more far from me in terms of his/her upbringing and culture, yet it feels like we’re kindred souls.

What could be a crucial point for the sustainability of the marriage (IMHO)is the place where Betty and Mahmoud intend to live: I suggest as a start (and if possible) a place where they can be at equal distant from their originating cultures. The equal vectors meeting and creating balance so that nobody feels pushed or compromising. I hope I’m making sense.

Wish you both the best of luck.

Now to the subject of inter-religious marriage in Syria; I have only one thing to say, and I know it might get people going gung-ho all over me: it’s definitely not fair that Muslim women can’t marry Christian men (should they chose to) while the vice versa is possible.

Contentious? No, I don't think so. That's some o...

2008-08-10T10:57:00.000+03:00

Contentious? No, I don't think so. That's some of the best common-sense advice I've ever read!

As for the differences between Damascus, Tartous and Mahmoud's home town... well, that's very correct and makes a lot of sense too. Even within 'new' countries like the US and Australia, there's a lot of cultural variation between cities. Multiply that by thousands of years and the differences become even more apparent. For instance, I found the differences between Hama and Tartous absolutely fascinating, even though they're about 50km apart.

One more piece of advice that you can give Betty is to jump on the Lonely Planet message board for Syria (http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/forum.jspa?forumID=18&keywordid=81). There's a few American, Australian and European expats who post on there regularly; if she's after any more feedback on what life in Syria is like for an outsider, someone should be able to answer her questions. Best of luck to her.

Hope you're also keeping well!

Great post AbuFares.You are a regular Dr.Phil/Robe...

2008-08-10T10:42:00.000+03:00

Great post AbuFares.
You are a regular Dr.Phil/Robert de Niro (meet the parents).
But you know its a funny thing. My husband and I are both Punjabis from Lahore.
The differences between us however are like chalk and cheese. Yes we share the same language, culture, religion so to speak, but our representations of these similar things are so different that we might as well be from seperate religions or races.
My point?
When one falls in love and chooses oneself ones life partner, it is more often the uniting of hearts/souls and those transcend all other man made barriers.
Its hard for a inter racial marriage agreed, but people dont seem to realise that marriage is in general a tough deal which you have to work hard at no matter where/who you are.

Abu Fares, its a difficult question to answer but ...

2008-08-10T10:05:00.000+03:00

Abu Fares, its a difficult question to answer but you gave Betty your honest opinion. In the end, she is the one that has to decide what matters to her, what she is willing to give up, what she is willing to accept, what she can handle and what she wants from this marriage. I can only hope she makes a trip to her husband's home town before making a decision.

Abu Fares,Loved your response to Betty, balanced a...

2008-08-10T03:32:00.000+03:00

Abu Fares,

Loved your response to Betty, balanced and truthful; said as only you can. I agree with all of it.

To Betty:

I am the product of a mixed marriage: Christian European mother and a Syrian Muslim father. It has been 52 years and going strong. Keep in mind that my mother arrived in a Syria that was much more insular and conservative than it is now. In contrast when I open the student directory of the school my children attend here in the U.S., almost half of the kids have two addresses because their parents are divorced.

I can't imagine how hard it is for Betty, first to...

2008-08-09T20:44:00.000+03:00

I can't imagine how hard it is for Betty, first to come to the realization that he is the right Life Partner in terms of character, secondly, to face the obsticales "forced realities" of society. But it was done before, although results vary, yet each union has its own identity hence should be handled differently. Change is necessary and as Henry George said "There is danger in reckless change; but greater danger in blind conservatism" in other words, only she knows what is right for her, somehow we all get to know that.