Comments on abufares said...the world according to a tartoussi: Live and Let Live

@Bubidu Thank you for dropping by. It's always my ...

2009-04-19T08:39:00.000+03:00

@Bubidu
Thank you for dropping by. It's always my pleasure to be visited by Tartoussis.
Apparently my choice of words was not as good as it could have been when I talked about the "choice" homosexuals made.
I have better understanding now perhaps. Some men like women the normal way. Some like them a lot and the extent of our love is evidently not a matter of choice. Under this light I can see the preferences of homosexuals as something which they do not have control over.
I might have needed the stupidity, bigotry and chauvinism of certain Syrian bloggers and the writing of this article and the associated comments to further realize a few facts of life about homosexuality but I'm happy I finally did.
Bringing religion into this argument is not different than bringing it into any other. It's totally senseless and meaningless.
The most important safeguard for any society is a set of laws which does not rely on religion in its first and foremost reason: Civil Rights to all on equal basis. Religion makes equal only those who believe and adhere to it and even then to varying degrees as far as gender is concerned. It defeats its own claim at universality and absolute truth simply by starting with bigoted assumptions.
Again, thank you for being here and I look forward reading more of your comments.

@GSWelcome anytime. Better late than never.I think...

2009-03-23T12:32:00.000+02:00

@GS
Welcome anytime. Better late than never.
I think, and this might be too harsh on my part, that even arguing and commenting on these blogs give them unwarranted credibility.
Any ideology, philosophy, social or political ideal and, ehem... religion which refuses the existence of others or tries to change them despite themselves is not to be taken seriously, if it is to be taken at all.
Am I contradicting myself here? Not really. I believe that they exist. I believe that they have the right to exist. I just don't like them.
Cheers to you

Abu Fares,I'm landing here too late, may be. I som...

2009-03-23T12:15:00.000+02:00

Abu Fares,

I'm landing here too late, may be. I sometimes follow the principle of:
يطعمك الحج و الناس راجعة

Just to say: I support your post. People should be what they are.

I ventured into a discussion with one of the "leaders" of the so-called campaign against homosexuality. It's here:
http://www.mohammad-online.com/mohammad/?p=396#comments

Frankly, it's becoming more and more difficult to reason with those blokes, but I keep trying.

Cheers,
GS

@FantasiaPagans should have no serious issues with...

2009-03-22T10:03:00.000+02:00

@Fantasia
Pagans should have no serious issues with the sexual behavior and preferences of others. It's only those who believe that God whispered the absolute truth in their ears who consider themselves on a higher plateau of morality.

As a Pagan - I find this so hard to understand. Fo...

2009-03-21T17:59:00.000+02:00

As a Pagan - I find this so hard to understand. For us, as part of a spiritual and not a religious, following - we have but one creed. Do what you will but harm none.

So simple ... yet so difficult to implement.

Jabi,Many of the claims and arguments you presente...

2009-03-16T05:18:00.000+02:00

Jabi,

Many of the claims and arguments you presented are simply put, false and baseless. However, there are two main ones that I think are important to respond to.

1. Being visually attracted to a woman does not lead to rape and has nothing to do with rape. Women in the western world commonly and regularly where clothing that you would consider inappropriate. If your postulation were true, then women should be getting raped automatically everyday.

2. God created neither Adam and Eve nor Adam and Steve. Life evolved into various different life forms, one of which is humans. Generally, humans, along with other animals, are sexual beings that reproduce through sexual intercourse by opposite sexes. This, however, does not mean that individuals cannot be born with traits that are not in conformity with the general natural trend.

Jabi:I heard some stories from Syria,Women raped m...

2009-03-12T22:50:00.000+02:00

Jabi:I heard some stories from Syria,Women raped men?!!!!!
Although they didn't wear shorts or they were naked?!! Is it true?
And, half of Saudis are gays and lesbians?
Please anyone has any idea!

Cheers

Jabi, I just hope that life treats you well and th...

2009-03-12T16:39:00.000+02:00

Jabi,
I just hope that life treats you well and that no one in YOUR "correct and common sense" family gets raped, be it female or male. It would be a real tragedy to see you treat that person as your common sense seems to dictate and judge.

w.b.yeats

@jabiI need to answer another of your points of yo...

2009-03-11T16:29:00.000+02:00

@jabi
I need to answer another of your points of yours. Problem is you tackle so many different topics in each attempt it's hard to keep up with you.
I have made a second attempt to read this guy's blog and the ensuing comments after you made a point about us criticizing him without actually involving ourselves in a dialogue. Jabi, you must be kidding me. Listen I'm not better than anyone out there but this guy and the rest of his band leave no place at the bottom for worst. Did you actually read the comments, the replies and the counter-comments. I don't think any self-respecting person can tolerate that atmosphere even if he agrees with their thesis to start with. DJ's noble effort was a thankless one. There is no point.
As for writing in Arabic rather than English you might have a point there but it's not going to be me. I might be a benevolent man over all but I'm not going to waste my time and effort on self-righteous people regardless of who they are.
I have to give you this. You are trying to bridge the gap in a way but I personally think that you should be more lenient with others and harsher on yourself. Give it a try. It might do you some good.

@jaffa879I don't think you were addressing your co...

2009-03-11T16:14:00.000+02:00

@jaffa879
I don't think you were addressing your comment to me because the only sin I believe in is hurting others intentionally. And, I do agree with your point of view.
Welcome to my humble home.

@KanoYou're very welcome. BTW, my name is Abu Fare...

2009-03-11T16:11:00.000+02:00

@Kano
You're very welcome. BTW, my name is Abu Fares not Abu Firas.
Firas is the neighbors' kids but I swear I have nothing to do with him, lol.
You're right. When you visit Syria you are more and more likely going to meet people on your side of the religiosity divide. With every return, those on the other side will be even more distant and in due time you will forget that they exist at all.
This is the way we're heading unfortunately. Until we mature as a culture, there's very little space for improvement.

Rape, my dear Jabi, has little to do with sexual f...

2009-03-11T13:06:00.000+02:00

Rape, my dear Jabi, has little to do with sexual frustrations or sex, altogether, and everything to do with controlling, dominating, degrading and inflicting pain on its victims (men, women and children). The release of a bit of semen doesn’t cure the rapist of his need to violate another person because the problem isn’t in his penis, it’s in his brain. The victim (and what they’re wearing) is irrelevant. If, however, you mean horny teenagers, then no amount of clothing is going to come between them and their erections. I’m sure you were a teenager once. It’s a natural phase and passes when boys mature. Rapists are not horny teenagers.

As for the religious debate, your belief system isn’t right because its common sense. I can assure you, billions around the world think your belief system is as far removed from common sense as possible. That doesn’t make them right, because common sense isn’t a basis for right or wrong. Hell, I don’t even know what common sense means or covers. My common sense says not to go bungee jumping but my husband thinks its great fun. Everyone’s common sense is different. Your belief system is right for you only because you believe it to be so. Only. My belief system isn’t common sense. It’s a belief system that I choose to accept and live by.

I don’t get your inference about the Shari’a basis for Syrian legislation. Are you saying that its justified (common sense) because even the current secular regime concurs it?

Jabi,I am glad that you found the answers in Islam...

2009-03-10T21:34:00.000+02:00

Jabi,

I am glad that you found the answers in Islam. I am very happy for you. And I support your right to believe and live your life the way you want, as much as I support the right of others (gays, lesbians, left-handed, dyslexics, cock-eyed, fat, argelih smokers, atheists) to believe and live the life they desire. This is 'live and let live' for you, and it's really that simple...

It was a little hasty conclusion on your part to conclude I am not a Muslim. Why can't I be a Muslim? do I need to love the mashaykh to become a Muslim? I actually hold little respect for most of them whom I've met in my life. The reason being-- and please don't take this as an attack on your own believes because it's not-- that for the most part they are fear-mongers and hate inciter. There were occasions where I was told I have to hate Jews and distrust Christians. Atheists? don't even think about it, illa jahnam wa be'sa al maseer. And since your soul will be resurrected with those it loves at the day of judgement, you are advised strictly not to have any non-muslim friends. Maybe if you brush by an atheist and you like him/her, your soul will be chained to them and you're doomed. Fear mongering man. The relentless search for purity through conformity and total adherence and complete excommunication of any one who deviate a little. And this is not only within the Muslim clergy; Christians, Jews..etc.. they all hold the same polarized views about the others. Because this is the nature of the preacher, he need to sow fear to reap allegiance. No thanks. I am happy to be a muslim without having to ask anybody AT ALL to think on my behalf or interpret life and scripture for me. And this is exactly the reason I detest mixing politics, statesmanship or governance with religion. I like me a secular state, where your religious beliefs (and mine) are as important before the state as the brand of your mobile phone. (come to think of it, why should I bother if you own Nokia or Mottorlla? at the end of the day it's all personal matters, I'd only start caring when you become obsessive and start excessively brandishing and showing off your mobile phone in front me, I'd then say "please put that away or keep it to yourself").

But I salute your courage to talk from the point of view of common sense, let me ask you then; from a common sense point of view, why is homosexuality bad for your envisioned society?

If you do believe that homosexuality is such an of...

2009-03-10T21:15:00.000+02:00

If you do believe that homosexuality is such an offensive sin, then you have to realize that those who are gay or lesbian didn't "choose" or be open about their sexuality without realizing the harsh consequences they may face in every day life. Then why do you think restrictions or persecution will change their behavior or preference? Why not leave it for God to judge? For if their actions are as offensive as you believe, then their punishment will be more righteous and harsh than anything you can inflict in life. Meanwhile, let them live their life.

For if you raise your children correctly, then why should you worry about homosexuality or sexual temptation, for your children should be strong enough to resist.

(Having trouble posting on Blogger so if this response appears twice or my earlier post magically appears after I post this one, please forgive me)

Abou FirasThank you very much for allowing this gr...

2009-03-10T20:54:00.000+02:00

Abou Firas

Thank you very much for allowing this great discussion on your blog. I am not a blog writer or even a blog reader to that regard. It is only I have a big exam tomorrow and naturally I am looking for ways to "waste time".

I will have to say i was shocked and disgusted when I came across this hate campaign we are discussing. I wasn't shocked that a bigot somewhere in Syria started this. I came across loads of these "Talibanic" types through the years. My shock was to the amount of support he had, and from who? From Bloggers! These are supposidly the educated, open-minded, young voice of the new Syria. I would have never imagined there is that much hatred and bigotted views in our socity.

May be because I lived in London for almost 6 years now I stopped seeing the true Syrian society. I come home for Holidays and move and meet a small sector of the society. I only see this part of Syria with thier open-minded views thier aspiration to make it a better place. I didn't see the big devide in our society.

Anyway I'll stop talking. Just want to say, thank you Abou Firas and everybody who wrote on this page.

Keep up the good work guys.

"Live and let live"

wow.. didnt notice it was that long.. sorry Abufar...

2009-03-10T18:22:00.000+02:00

wow.. didnt notice it was that long.. sorry Abufares!

Abufares,lol I agree, let me rephrase, men are 'mo...

2009-03-10T18:21:00.000+02:00

Abufares,
lol I agree, let me rephrase, men are 'more' visually stimulated than women. Do we agree? :)

http://www.seductionlabs.org/2007/07/24/why-men-are-more-visual/

Yazan,
We choose who we want to be right? I don't blame a freedom fighter for his suffering, but that is what he/she chose to be, and they knew that they will suffer. There are those who will leave and decide not to fight and those who will fight and accept that they will suffer.. these people know the consequences of their actions.

I donno how this discussion went into women who expose themselves, seems everytime I discuss someting on abufares's blog (whom I thank for allowing this discussion to take place) I end up talking about women in miniskirts. anyways women who wear indecent clothing must know the consequences of their actions. Unfortunately they don't and neither do many of you acknowledge the fact that there are consequence even if they were infinitesimal consequences, I still stick to the point that indecently clothed women might get themselves rapped. I understand why many of you find it insulting but I was hoping that you would actually understand that comment without me having to explain it in detail. I am not saying that a man will rape a woman instantly but then again a man constantly viewing half naked women will lead to sexual frustration and the way that person releases that frustration will vary, and rape is one of them. Now this is what I believe unless someone can prove it wrong, someone who knows a psychologist or something ask them if there is anything wrong with this argument please and let me know.

Lujayn: same as above

Dubai Jazz:
A person who stops examining his/her beliefs is a person that does not think. What am I doing here other than debating my beliefs? atleast that is what I am doing, I donno if taking a 'Jab' is similar to debating. Unlike those who had a problem with the person (mohammad online) and his campaign who went and thrashed his beliefs, and him personally and didn't even bother to discuss it with him (except DJ) and wrote it in another language that that person might not understand. Let me just say that I am not here to ridicule your beliefs, neither can I or anyone else force you to live the way we see as acceptable. However i do think that the majority of syrians will have the opinion that homosexuality is not acceptable in our society.

I have personally, always questioned my beliefs, since january I have attended 5 talks, and 2 debates regarding islam and Christianity and faith in general. I havn't been always a person who believed in religion the way I do today, 5 years ago I was doubting if there was a god, but its the experiences that we go through that make us who we are right? and alhamdullah I am where I am and I am very much more comfortable with my beliefs and the way I am living my life.

I don't understand why this attack on muslim shiekhs or as you refer to them as Turbaned-Heads. I have personally had a couple of talks with sheikhs and other dua'at (du3at) or preachers to islam and they were more than welcoming in answering our questions, on the other hand I once was questioning a christian preacher and all he did was talk over me and didnt let me speak and then left claiming that he had to go somewhere (must admit it was late). You live in dubai why not go and talk to the sheikh of your local mosque? if that is too much, there are alot of videos on youtube you can watch as well.
It is either that you have the same misconceptions and stereotypes that are present in hollywood movies or you havnt really questioned your religious beliefs before. And one last thing regarding this matter, why should they leave their beliefs behind while you don't leave yours behind? are you assuming that your beliefs are right and theirs are wrong thats why they have to leave their beliefs behind?

I was saying that my beliefs (regarding this matter) are right, not because they are divine but because they are common sense.
Non of you presented me with information (suffonsifisms provided reasons for rape but not whether or not my comment was true or not unless I am to talk his/her word as a fact? in which case i will have to look up myself) that I can say that hey you know what, this person has a solid argument against my opinion. All you guys were doing was insulting my beliefs and my understanding of things and then saying how insulted or offended you were because i said "women get rapped".

Why do we have a system that bases its policies and regulations on sharia'a in syria? Are we ruled by the Mufti of Syria? Is Bashar Al Assad a religious figure?

interested in reading the replies to this comment :)..
salam

Jabi,Look, I don’t want to sound like I am just ta...

2009-03-10T13:45:00.000+02:00

Jabi,
Look, I don’t want to sound like I am just taking another ‘Jab’ at you after Abu Fares, Lujayn, and Yazan. As far as I am concerned you sound like an intelligent person and you could probably detect the flaw in your own reasoning. I am especially amused by your statements:

and now i know why Arab countries are still struggling to catch up with the west.. some of you need to watch a question-and-answer session in parliament with Gordon Brown and David Cameron, and see what i mean.

I couldn’t tell if you’re kidding or not ?? I mean, I watch these grueling sessions in the House of Commons every now and then and it’s as you said, quite open and ‘no holds barred’. But please be honest with yourself and tell me, would you accept this kind of questioning of your own beliefs? I mean, do you not agree that within the House of Commons there is no taboos? Everything is open for discussion, again: 'no holds barred' . Leave your religious beliefs at the door and please come on in and let’s have some fun. I wonder if any of the Turbaned-Heads would survive 5 minutes in that room without declaring everyone who disagrees an infidel?

Besides, let’s not forget that the kind of discourse at the House of Commons that you seem to like too much, is pretty much the product of separation of church and state (or mosque and state in our case).

Jabi, you are not only certain that your beliefs are right, you are certain that at no point in the future there will come a time when you will pause to examine them, even for a little while. And that, my friend, is very sad indeed.

Jabi,I need to ask you a question. Is the only th...

2009-03-10T12:00:00.000+02:00

Jabi,

I need to ask you a question. Is the only thing that comes between you personally raping a woman what she is wearing? Your argument basically is that every man including your father, grandfathers, brothers, male cousins and male neighbors, is a born rapist, but the fact that your mother, grandmothers, sisters, female cousins and female neighbors cover up prevents them from carrying out their urges, right? I find that insulting to all the men around you, as well as to the women. I would think the thing that prevents the men in your life from raping women is their conviction that they have no right to violate another human being, regardless of what that human being is wearing or acting or saying. Needless to say, many women who are veiled are raped anyways, seeing as rape is rampant even in conservative societies such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan.

Jabi,You know what struck me the most, your reason...

2009-03-10T11:47:00.000+02:00

Jabi,
You know what struck me the most, your reasoning is identical to those who blame a freedom fighter for his suffering or a prisoner of conscience for his captivity.

So it is the sexy writings of Michel Kilo which sent the regime "jizzing in its pants" and sticking him behind bars for 3 years, not the actual brutality of such a regime.

You know what, people have the right to expect to be safe and how they dress, or look like should be irrelevant.

Oh and one thing else, you were not "simply" stating a "fact" you were hinting that women are the ones responsible for themselves getting raped, rather than the monster who committed the act, and that is offensive no matter what angle you look at it from.

@Abu KareemYou can't move my friend. We are as muc...

2009-03-10T11:12:00.000+02:00

@Abu Kareem

You can't move my friend. We are as much a part of SYRIA as they are. They might be louder, more organized and certainly more aggressive but that's how far they go. We are much more fun:-)
Looking forward reading your two cents.

@JabiI will of course reply to my part of your com...

2009-03-10T11:06:00.000+02:00

@Jabi
I will of course reply to my part of your comment and will try to make it brief. Suffonsifisms & Yazan are more than welcome to reply to theirs.

Jabi, have you considered a non-confrontational approach to life in general? Why is there always something in others that you need to change? What common sense are you talking about? Despite the abundance of scientific evidence supporting evolution for instance you still refuse it completely and entertain us with Adam and Steve.
I think you should try love for a change, that is to love someone and to be loved back. Life is too short to waste without love:-)

One final statement, although I promised to only answer my part. I'm certain that Suffonsifisms would not leave that strangest thought of you unanswered but I couldn't resist.

"the fact is that men are sexually stimulated visually while women are not."

Are you out of your mind? Do you really believe that women are not visually stimulated? Hahaha, I have a BIG surprise for you, women go nuts with visual stimuli. They love us as much as we love them and enjoy every little tiny bit (and the big one of course) of our masculine anatomy as much as we enjoy the inherent beauty of their butts, boobs, legs and all of their exquisite contours.

Abu Fares,This homophobic campaign has left me so ...

2009-03-10T03:10:00.000+02:00

Abu Fares,
This homophobic campaign has left me so disgusted that I considered moving my blog to a more tolerant "Planet". But we should not yeild to the push of intolerant fanatics. Thanks for pushing back. Once I have a moment, I will have my two cents to say about this as well.

Abufares:whats so offensive about that? people get...

2009-03-09T21:29:00.000+02:00

Abufares:
whats so offensive about that? people get rapped, some are sexually molested, others choose to be gay or lesbian, all people at some time in their lives are straight, some people are prostitutes. This is reality, if every time people are going to be sensitive and angry about such little but significant issues then we will never get anywhere. and now i know why Arab countries are still struggling to catch up with the west.. some of you need to watch a question-and-answer session in parliament with Gordon Brown and David Cameron, and see what i mean.
As much as i hate to say this but yea I do believe that my beliefs are right, not because i think they are 'divine' but because it is common sense, in this case since there are men and women and men are naturally meant to have sex with women, then naturally a man having sex with another man is not right, it is not natural, otherwise we would have been asexual species and there wont be a need to have two genders. Simple. and that's it. God created adam and eve.. not adam and steve..

Or for the people who refuse to admit that there is a God then it can be said that 'humans evolved into adam and eve...'etc

suffonsifisms:
same as above. But i dont understand why you guys get angry because I said women get rapped because of what they wear, the fact is that men are sexually stimulated visually while women are not. Unfortunately I dont have a link for you to read. however there are anthropological research done on that.

Yazan,
i was sure that someone will understand it that way, all i was trying to say is that women are not doing themselves any favor by wearing revealing clothes, and thats exactly what i said in my previous comment..

Anyhow seems you guys are a sensitive bunch today.. :)
good day..

@w.b.yeatsBut of course they have something to hid...

2009-03-09T17:49:00.000+02:00

@w.b.yeats
But of course they have something to hide. Many things as a matter of fact. They are hiding their cowardice in being afraid to question authority. They are hiding their inability to think on their own. They are hiding their dependency on the supernatural because they can't face the natural world. They are hiding their mental impotency. They are hiding their inability to love and be loved.
Is that enough???
Now that I talked to you, I feel much better:-)